Interview With
Seemingly Random but truly all Connected: Conversation with a British Young Artist
2/24/24
FILE: 0029
Grace Lee
Archive00
Hello Grace. What were you doing just before coming to this interview?
Grace Lee
Staring into space, then I remembered I still hadn’t actually answered these questions (what I was doing before I first read these questions was sleeping, as I read them first thing after I woke up and began my routine morning message check, greedily reading all my messages and emails).
Archive00
How do you remember yourself as a child?
Grace Lee
My childhood was fairly uneventful, and I haven’t changed much. My mum says I was born middle-aged.
Archive00
What is your star sign? Do you believe in astrology?
Grace Lee
I don’t believe in astrology at all (to the point I often resent telling people my star sign) but I’m an Aquarius - and I do love coincidences, which is what astrology is to me. Regina Spektor, musician and fellow Aquarius, has a song that uses the sign as a starting point. I think it’s a good example of how we can weave personal mythologies, and make connections, both beautiful and useful, that we wouldn’t be afforded without coincidental reference points.
Archive00
While scientific developments are producing more logical explanations of the world, some people continue to be fascinated by star signs, blood types - irrational explanations of our experiences. What do you think makes them so attractive?
Grace Lee
People like certainty, in a world that doesn’t provide a lot of it. Joan Didion said "we tell ourselves stories in order to live," and that "we live entirely...by the imposition of a narrative line upon disparate images, by the 'ideas' with which we have learned to freeze the shifting phantasmagoria - which is our actual experience.”
These stories range from religion, to astrology, to why that guy isn’t texting you back. I think Didion saw this as a kind of violence on the world, robbing things of their innate autonomous identities and replacing them with our own crude simulacra - but I’m interested in our dumb stories, and the reasons we tell them. I think there’s something fragile and vulnerable in them, that’s beautiful in its own way, like brutalist architecture or animals that are so ugly they start to become cute again. There’s also a quote from the book ‘House of Leaves’ that offers a slightly more accusatory translation: "We all create stories to protect ourselves”.
Archive00
Which holds more emotive power over you, transient, delicate matters or timeless, lasting matters?
Grace Lee
I think transience will always be more of interest to me, because I am transient and also, as we all tend to be, mostly just interested in myself.
Archive00
Speaking of mythologies, two of your works, ‘Hindsight in 1680’ and ‘The Opener’ showed in a group exhibition named ‘New Mythologies II’ in 2022. In what ways do these works explore the idea of ‘mythology’?
Grace Lee
It was the gallery that chose those works for the show, and I think the justification was more my use of the internet for my image hunting than the works themselves. The internet is very good at disseminating information, so mythology spreads far wider and faster than the previous method of folk songs performed live by a traveling band of thespians. But now instead of Greek gods or dragons, it’s attachment theory and a constant questioning of if we’re drinking enough water.
Archive00
What is the most absurd news/theory you have come across on the internet?
Grace Lee
All of it.
Archive00
In your 2018 animation ‘The Baths’, you depict public bath as a magical space that hosts ancient deep sea creatures alongside humans. What’s the story behind that?
Grace Lee
‘The Baths’ was inspired by a strange aquarium in Matlock Bath that has a koi pond in an old swimming pool, along with images of the space as it used to look. I used to visit a lot as a child, and only ever at night for some reason, which made it doubly eerie to me. There’s also a hologram gallery upstairs. It’s a weird place, and one of my favourites. Visiting the pool, I was struck by a sadness around the passage of time. Fish are one of the most ancient creatures, and here they are again reclaiming the pool, like a constant return. I love the bath house as a womb-like space, but eventually we all have to get out of the water. I don’t see my work as surreal, though that’s a word that often gets levied against it, it's just the way things most make sense to me. The melancholy and reverence of time, decay and healing - I don’t know how to talk about that feeling without the fish in the pool.
Archive00
The abundance of fish in our daily lives makes us forget how ancient they are. The fishes in your work seem to be embodiments of time, and stands out to me like a Memento Mori.
Grace Lee
I did a painting of a shark last year called ‘Predate’ which uses the double meaning of the word: predate as in to precede something in time, and also to 'predate' on, as in to hunt. I do think there’s something threatening in the great expanse of time, not dissimilar to the vastness of an ocean, though I’m almost never thinking about death. It’s more the presence of something so completely outside of us. The first line of voice over in the original Jaws trailer describes the shark as having ‘survived millions of years of evolution’. There’s an emphasis on the shark as something primordial, something that was around before us and that may well be here after us, and Jaws presents the shark as something we can fight and even defeat, but never harness or control. I think anything that resists in this way is compelling.
Archive00
“Almost never thinking about death”. Wow. It feels unusual to hear that since death seems like one of the perpetual topics explored in art.
Grace Lee
I don’t think much about it at all. What will I care? I’ll be dead.
Archive00
I noticed you acquired a new studio in late 2022. What is your studio like? What is your favourite thing about it?
Grace Lee
I’ve actually moved again now! I loved my 2022 studio, my favourite thing about it was its own independent thermostat. With most studios, you’re lucky if they even have heating at all. I was sad to leave, but the building closed down. This is a recurring theme, since graduating I’ve had 4 studios in 3 years. It’s very hard to find affordable spaces in London and one way to do it is to take over old office blocks in-between renovations. Upside: cost and location. Downside: your buildings are constantly marked for demolition – but I actually don’t mind. I like moving around, seeing different parts of the city. I’ll miss the thermostat, and lovely modern building with a window that spanned the whole length of the space – but I won’t miss the steep rent and hour-long walk through one of London’s most soulless business districts. My new studio is a lovely shorter walk down the canal, and will be cheaper for the same size. Currently no heating though, these are the trade offs you make! But it’s nice to face a different demon for a while.
Archive00
What’s your daily routine? Do you paint everyday? Are there times where you struggle to find inspiration?
Grace Lee
I do paint most days, generally 6 days a week. My winter routine differs from summer due to what I like to call my ‘hibernation period’. I rise and fall with the sun, so my winter days are significantly shorter, usually 10am-3pm for studio hours (vs the summer 8am-4pm). I haven’t struggled for inspiration in a long time, there’s almost always something I’m excited about. I think it’s helped by having other creative places to turn to, including writing, music and animation. I recently heard Joni Mitchell describe it as ‘crop rotation’: "Anytime I make a record, it's followed by a painting period. It's a good crop rotation. I keep the creative juices going.”
Archive00
What about social media? Some would argue that algorithmic suggestions prevailing almost every platform nowadays ends up limiting our access to new information and makes us less creative in some cases.
Grace Lee
I certainly lament the rise of the algorithm as much as anyone, the way its turned everything into ‘content’ is devastating. This push to streamline everything into highways of profit has robbed us of so much, but I’d probably still rank social media as my top source of creative inspiration. My feeds (both Instagram and Twitter) are highly curated, so I decide what I see, not an algorithm. The trick is to follow few enough people that you see the ‘You’re all caught up’ message on Instagram daily. Most people I tell that to didn’t even know such a message exists, because they never reach the end of their feed. It takes a lot more work to find worthwhile sources, and it’s harder to just stumble upon things, but this kind of peer to peer network of texts and images is vital to my process.
Archive00
Who is someone you have admired growing up and why?
Grace Lee
Only my mum, I don’t think anyone else can be more kind and patient with those who deserve it, and also give a good dressing down to those who deserve that too (privately though, in this house we criticise people behind their back like civilised folk). And maybe Dana Scully from the X-Files, I really liked her hair.
Archive00
Share with us a moment you consider to be a turning point in your life.
Grace Lee
I don’t know if there’s anything I’d describe as a turning point, or maybe everything is, there’s little way of knowing without access to the multiverse. But I do think going to Goldsmiths for my undergrad likely had a profound effect on how I approach art. I didn’t really have any interest in the materiality of painting, and they were, if anything, openly hostile towards it – so it was a surprisingly good match. It did mean that my technical skill was maybe delayed, I think if I’d been caught trying to better my craft they’d have spat in my face, but back then I was only interested in concept and now I’m glad I focused on that first. I got the hang of linen and Michael Harding eventually (8 years later).
And one tutor, Alison Jones, really helped me and the like 5 other painters at the time. It was also where I first encountered Allison Katz who was a visiting tutor, and an unmeasurable inspiration. Just wanted to give a shout out to the Al(l)isons.
Archive00
What was it like being an art student at Goldsmiths? How do you find London as a city for studying art?
Grace Lee
Goldsmiths mostly left me alone, and I liked that, being given the space and trust to just work things out. Due to my own bourgeoning agoraphobia at the time I don’t think I made the most of studying in London, my days were mostly spent between the two locations of my studio and my bedroom. Living in South East London, everything felt too far away. I pay a premium to live in central London now, so I’m in easy access of all its cultural benefits (otherwise I won’t benefit from them at all).
Archive00
Can you tell us a bit more about how your tutors (the Al(l)isons) influenced you?
Grace Lee
I definitely overthought everything back then (and sometimes now), but Alison (Jones) taught me to explore through making, and to try starting with the image first. I can work out what it means later, not everything has to be meticulously mapped and plotted before you even pick up a brush. Allison (Katz) also really demonstrates how ideas and images themselves can be generative, that small moments and coincidences can begin to layer meaning into a work. I’ve never wanted to be hemmed into a specific style or subject matter, and she was probably my first exposure to a painter who remains open and eclectic within a body of work.
Archive00
There are some reoccurring themes (i.e. animals (but mainly fishes), stars, sounds, references to classical art) in your paintings that become recognisable over time. What are some concepts you have decided to keep more or less as constants in your works recently and why?
Grace Lee
It's interesting that you identified fish as a recurring motif, as it’s one I myself hadn’t noticed haha. It’s not uncommon for others to pick up on a repeated subject before I do. I think I have an interest at the moment in non-mammal animals: fish, reptiles, amphibians, insects. There’s more work along these lines on the horizon, though I’m always partial to a cat, dog and monkey. I’ve previously worked with the animals that are closest to us, either in our evolution or daily lives. Birds are also an ever-present consideration, being one of the few wild animals we frequently come into close contact with. Recently I’ve shifted to the scarier looking animals, like alligators and scorpions, ones that are so alien to our own lives and biology. I pick animals and objects that have a lot of cultural baggage, whatever baggage I’m interested in is what determines the vessel.
Archive00
Tell us a bit more about “cultural baggage”. I remember a piece named up Up UP that portrays window panes faintly reminiscent of Shoji (Japanese window panes). What sparked your interest in it?
Grace Lee
The cultural baggage there is more about associations of birds and freedom. It’s based on an instructional shadow puppet guide by Utagawa Hiroshige, the shadow bird is pictured alongside the hands that create the illusion. I was drawn to it because the hands may appear to transform and take flight, but only behind the criss-crossed paper door that resembles a cage. The grid also takes on the impression of a sliding puzzle, but there’s no solution that would allow you to fly away.
Archive00
You once mentioned in an Instagram post in 2021 that ‘all artists end up looking like their art’. How does that statement manifest itself in your relationship with your works?
Grace Lee
Haha, I was just making a joke referencing the common adage that dogs look like their owners. I found the comparison of painting and animal to be humorous.
Archive00
I love the name of your paintings. Is there a name your are particularly fond of? How do you decide on them? Does the name usually come before the finished product or vice versa?
Grace Lee
Thank you! I think my favourite title is 'Away in à-manger' for my painting of the shadow of a pret-a-manger logo, a star. I’m also fond of ‘Human, Don’t Be Angry’ but I stole that from Malcolm Middleton so I can’t take the credit.
Usually the point at which idea and title meet is where I start on a painting. I’ll have a vague idea from an image, I’ll see something I like, but it’s the title that does the other half of the meaning making. It’s rare for the title to come first, but it does happen. I have a list of title ideas as well as image ideas, my favourite unused title so far is ‘Don’t cringe for me Argentina’. Maybe I’ll use it one day.
Archive00
Human figures seems to rarely take centre stage in your paintings, but the content makes us feel the presence of someone beyond the canvas, like the POV of a particular person. Is there a reason for the absence of human figures?
Grace Lee
I transitioned from painting almost exclusively people to an entirely people-less economy around 2017. There’s a long tradition of using animals to tell stories, from Egyptian gods to the beast fables popularised by Aesop in the 4th century. Objects and animals provide a more abstract canvas to work from, but also get to the point more directly, even while being evasive – bypassing thought to get straight to feeling. It partly comes back to control again, there’s something that will always be unknowable in animals that I think resonates with the human experience too. Comic artist Lisa Hanawalt (best known as the art director for Netlfix’s Bojack Horseman) explores this somewhat in her comic Coyote Doggirl. There’s also an interview in the New York Times that sums up this identification with being animal in discussing Hanawalt’s show ‘Tuca and Bertie’, which: "… came from a nature documentary Hanawalt watched once, which showed toucans using their long beaks to dig into other birds’ nests and gobble up their eggs. “Oh, my God,” she thought when confronted with the horrifying image. “That’s me. I eat all the eggs.” I think the process of translating things to a cartoon is similar to my process of depicting animals and objects as a shorthand for human experiences - minimalist, only essential lines. It simplifies but also conveys everything that’s important, and allows you to see more clearly. This is all to say, the POV of the painting can never be me, because I am the animal. That’s me, I eat all the eggs.
Archive00
You recently held your first solo exhibition ‘Fitting Room’ at Huxley Parlour. Congratulations!! How does the experience of ‘soloing’ differ from group exhibitions?
Grace Lee
Thank you! This was the first time I’d really worked on a cohesive body of work and it was interesting to consider how pieces would work as one larger installation. It was originally going to be in a basement space, which is where I got the idea for the title – as fitting rooms in clothing stores are often downstairs and windowless. The show ended up in a regular ground level space, which was better, but I’d love to consider site specificity more going forward.
Archive00
In what kind of space would you like to hold your next exhibition?
Grace Lee
I like responding and reacting, so I don’t have anything in mind. I’m excited to see what presents itself and how that impacts the work I make for the space.
Archive00
Being an ‘early career artist’, is there anything about taking up art for a career that is different from what you expected?
Grace Lee
I’ve found there are a lot more art worlds than just the one all-encompassing one I expected – and I’m having to consider where I want to be and, more specifically, where I don’t want to be. I’ve always said no a lot, and now I think is the time to start saying no even more. There are a lot of forces pushing and pulling in different directions, and I’ve been very lucky to already be heading down a path I’m happy with – so I don’t want to accidentally stray into work I don’t want to be making.
Archive00
What would be work that you “don’t want to be making”?
Grace Lee
Anything that isn’t interesting. It’s very easy to make a nice, boring painting, too easy. And I see them everywhere, including my own. It can be hard to accept that I will probably have to make quite a lot of boring paintings in order to get to the few that really excite me – and sometimes a work can come alive once it finds the right context, the right neighbouring works. Art is both the most necessary and the most frivolous thing we do, I just want to make it count.
Archive00
What do you think is the role of an artist in our current SNS-oriented society?
Grace Lee
I don’t think an artist has any one role, there are lots of ways to be an artist. I get a lot of ideas from social media, particularly Instagram – I have a folder of weird images I’ve found I called ‘The Trove’. I like that Instagram writes ‘only you can see what you’ve saved’ at the top, it sounds like a threatening promise.
Archive00
What is your biggest fear?
Grace Lee
Being slightly in the way.
Archive00
What would you be doing if you did not become an artist?
Grace Lee
Running away into the forest to live with the wolves, or maybe video editing.
Archive00
Good choices. And finally, tell us a secret.
Grace Lee
I heard Jenny and Kyle are hooking up, shh don’t tell anyone.
